Today, I had a conversation with a friend in the lab about Fringe… and it’s no surprise that our conversation deals with the new timeline and Peter.
Like many, he feels “meh” with the new season. But I think that is a valid reaction… it should feel strange and different, knowing that someone is missing in the world of Walter, Olivia and many other characters.
The longer conversation takes us to the deeper discussion of timeline and Peter.
He is convinced that the new timeline that we are seeing this season is the same “world” or “universe” as the blueverse (and redverse). On the other hand, I disagree. I think the Fringe we are seeing is a different universe, a universe without Peter. I think that Fringe is dealing with more than two universes – as I have discussed in my previous blog post , which sadly, only one person commented on… perhaps, the complexity of my suggested idea shunned by many. But I am guessing, this is more of semantic problem. Would you qualify a change of timeline – a new universe? Or not?
The more important question of this post is the question on the ramification of Peter’s return. It is a fact that he is coming back… but the time, don’t know. How will he come back? Does it really matter? How will affect the “new timeline”? A very interesting question.
My friend believes that Peter will come back and bring back the “old universe” – the blueverse and redverse. And somehow, Olivia and Walter will get touched (*ahem*Lost*ahem*) and get their memories back. But for this, I am not really convinced. It is simply because it is far too complicated and illogical for the timeline to be rearranged when Peter comes back. Not unless, of course, we suddenly see him changing the history of “orange Fringe world” into “correct” blueverse/redverse – which would satisfy my theory of multiverses. I held on the theory that the history won’t change. Kid Peter will still be dead, AltBroyles still exist… there could be a dejavu of some sort but Walter will rationalize things – to understand that Peter is a time traveler and accept that (besides, he will take in any form of Peter to satisfy his guilt). It will also be a fascinating story to tell that Walternate and Walter disagreement will grow deeper now knowing that Peter returned almost from the grave.
But my theory is not really that matters… I am more interested in what do you think?
Xero, I tend to agree with you that Peter will entering a whole new timeline once he makes it “back”. Oddly enough, he will bringing the memories with him of a universe/timeline that no longer exists. This may sound a little far out but if Walter, Liv and the rest “regain” their memories of Peter it will be through quantum entanglement with their former selves in a previous timeline. Do I really believe that? Not really. But it would make for great theater.
Peter was always a fish out of water. He was from one universe but living in another. Now he will be faced with the realization he will be swimming in a whole new ocean.
The writers of Fringe may written themselves into a box where the cat is either alive or dead or both. It should be interesting how they will write themselves out of it.
I think it will be the Observers (Most likely September) choose to do something allow Peter to return
We learned episode 4.01 Observers time line (call true time line) was still not right September was going to do something but what ever it was he didn’t go through with it
Last episode Walter told us that Peter in our Universe died, he went over to the ultra universe brought back peter from there but didn’t survive when he and Walter fell through the ice. For some reason September didn’t choose to rescue both Peter and Walter.
When Peter disappeared at end of S3 it had to be the result of SOMEONE CHOICE that altered Peter surviving crossing over into our universe with Walter and than in turn his encounter with Olivia as a child didn’t happen but yet he is needed to survive so he can go on and make the choice to create the bridge between our universes which is what currently exists. It like our current time line exist but the person who’s action created never did. There this connection that Walter and Olivia sense needs to be there because they really can’t be were they are without Peter still existing in their time line Just my thought thanks for sharing yours
Quantum Physics states that any possibilities that can happen do in fact happen, albeit in different realities / alternate universes. In the world of Fringe it hasn’t been explained whether or not this is the case, however using the color schemes of the multiple intro’s we can assume that it is.
For example, the episode that takes place in the future of the Blueverse has an intro that is black, which means that it is an “Alternate” future, rather than the actual future. The actual future of the Blueverse would in fact be blue, since it would be the same reality no matter what. Proof of this also lies in the fact that the Orangeverse has no Peter, or rather has Peter deceased, meaning that the black future can not occur in this timeline.
Using this as our basis, we can assume that the Orangeverse is a branch-off of the Blueverse, but not the actual Blueverse that has been altered. If there are an unlimited number of universes in the multiverse, then the Blueverse and Orangeverse both exist simultaneously and we, the viewers, are just now witnessing the events taking place in the Orangeverse instead of the Blueverse.
The Bluevese and Orangeverse share an exact history and branch apart when Peter is in the lake. In one universe he survives (blue) and in the other universe (orange) he dies. There would also be an unlimited number of other universes where he lives in some and dies in others, but we are focusing on these two alone.
So, as it were, instead of the Blue and Red Universes acting like two sides of one coin, instead there are an unlimited amount of sides to the coin, and each one possibly being represented by a different color. What we refer to as the Red Universe has also shown signs of change since this season began, such as Broyles once again being alive, so we can assume that this is actually NOT the Red Universe, but rather a branch-off of it, represented by a color that has yet to be revealed.
Now, and bare with me because this is all very confusing, the Peter we know is originally from the Redverse and was brought over to the Blueverse and was later seemingly “erased” from existence. However, he was only presumably erased from the Blueverse but his essence still exists in the universe that was created because of this (orange). Having Peter fully emerge in this Orange Universe will not restore the timeline; All that will have occurred is Peter successfully jumping to yet another universe in the multiverse (Red > Blue > Orange). The Orange Universe counterpart of Peter will still have died as a child due to sickness and the unrevealed color Universe Peter will have still drowned in the lake. Just a quick recap: There have been 5 different Universe counterparts of Peter to date; Red (main), Blue (died from sickness as a child), Black (alternate future of Red, or rather Blue), Orange (died from sickness as a child) and Unknown Color (drowned in the Orange lake).
The only way things will get back on track is if Peter can somehow return to the Blue Universe. This will not, however, cause the Orangeverse to cease to exist. By the end, if all works in Peters’ favor, he will be back in the Blueverse, yet Orange, Red, Black and Unknown will all still exist. However, only two counterparts of Peter will actually be alive (Red (living in Blue) and Black (alternate future)).
If you’ve read this far your head is probably spinning as much as mine…
My theory all along has been that the end of the show is going to be Walter figuring out how to time travel back to before red universe Peter died and save him from dying. Thus no need to go over and steal blue universe Peter, and have him need to be saved from drowning in the lake. Walternate will discover how to save his Peternate because the observer won’t interrupt him. Both Walters get to keep their Peters and we all live happily ever after.
While the idea of a third universe appeals to my sense of ‘sci-fi’ mischief, nothing has happened on the show to suggest or support that a #3verse exists. This year the blue/red saga continued where it left off at the end of season 3. If there were a third (yellow) universe – what are the chances that the “tactical” situation on Liberty island is identical to that in the blue/red universe? None. If there is a #3verse, that demands a #4verse (purple) – because we’ve already seen their Bolivia and Lincoln. The first three years of the show have had one basic context… The Observer interfered and history diverted down the wrong path when Peter lived. The new season keeps the same basic saga, but with a twist… whoops, what if the Observer was wrong about resetting the timeline? A third universe would confuse and ultimately erode an already dwindling fan base. I doubt Bad Robot is walking that path.
Maybe the end should reveal Walter all alone and aware of all the ways he lost Peter. Peter and Olivia become the King and Queen of the Observers and both become eventually removed from time.
Walter sets up the boy from Alone in the World to become the next age’s mad scientist and Ella alone can stop him, (along with a hefty dose of Cortexifan!) and the cycle begins again.
But I Like your idea GFish, I’m a sucker for happy endings.
Xero –
Your friend’s response is ultimately the key to understanding the whole thing…. forget what makes the most logical sense and remember 2 extremely important elements:
1) most viewers feel tethered to the “reality” or “universe” that they believe is the one they are currently living in… i.e. if all of these characters were really alive and kicking, which Walter or Olivia or Peter could I actually bump into at Starbucks one day… This is why your friend is feeling a little disoriented… where is his reality? The average user is going to feel cheated if some version of what they consider their reality (the original blueverse) doesn’t come back in some way, shape or form. Unfortunately, I’m afraid the writers may think that original blueverse Peter is the only slice of that old reality we may end up with. That I guess will be better than nothing. Otherwise, it’s St. Elsewhere all over again.
2) What will have the most dramatic weight? Getting Peter and Olivia together in Season 3 was a little dangerous — where to go next with that storyline? It’s always been the staple conundrum of all TV writers… everyone wants the two main characters to get together, then things get boring and stale with the relationship once they get together… you can’t ever make audiences happy! So, imagine this as a way to mix things up — blueverse Peter comes into this new Orangeverse with all of his knowledge, but knows he can’t “tell all” about his reality. Of course he’s still in love with Olivia, but this Olivia doesn’t even know him… then again, does he really know her, or is he confusing her with the blueverse Olivia? In addition, maybe Olivia and nerdy Lincoln start something up, which gives all sorts of fun triangle-y stuff going on.
Anyway, I for one am going to just sit back and watch what happens..
I have a theory why the Observers simply did not go back in time and prevent Walternate from being distracted. This impacts how Peter returns, how it is that Peter was not erased entirely etc.
My theory is that if they did go back in time to fix the problem, it would just start a new, alternate timeline and would not fix the timeline they wanted fixed. Instead they decided to work with this single timeline that encompasses both original red and blue universes. And in S4 we are still in the original universes and the original timeline.
So what they needed to do was two-fold. They set up a reset/check point so that once they fixed the problem — gotten Peter to do the thing that made him important — they could reset time at that point. And they had to make sure that Peter survived the plunge into the frozen lake.
And because time would rebound to the reset point, they were not so concerned about becoming known to Walter and the Fringe Division. The Observers could act openly to do things like talk to Walter, make sure he would let Peter risk his life in the machine, etc. They just had to make sure that Peter did what he was suppose to do.
So once Peter created the bridge, time snapped back between the reset point — the point the Observers set up just before they interfered by saving Peter from drowning in the lake. And at the point the bridge was created.
Think of time as a rubber band stretched between those two points. Then think of the saving of Peter at the lake and the other Observer interventions as fingers pulling the rubber band. When the bridge is created, the rubber band snaps back, leaving Peter and any other secondary and tertiary changes resulting from interventions the Observers made behind.
Everything that happened “before” (except the bridge creation) should have been erased. But, as we know now, there was some residual effect deep in the subconscious of Olivia and perhaps Walter as well. And there is bleed through as Peter was not completely erased, but shifted out-of-phase with the rest of reality. This is because we are still in the original timeline even though it had been distorted temporarily by the Observers.
This might be their standard way of fixing things when they accidentally interfered with what was suppose to happen. And they could not fix things without exposing their existence to the world.
When their accidental interference resulted in someone important to the plan dying this might have been the only way then knew of to fix it.
So when Peter returns through a combination of Walter, Olivia and Peter’s own efforts, only Peter will know who he is. His friends and loved ones will not magically remember him with a touch,
Peter will have a long, tough row to hoe trying to: First, convince everyone that he is the living embodiment of a dead child who went through life-altering experiences with Walter and the Fringe team. And secondly to prove himself as the son, the soul mate, and the member of the team we all know he is.
I agree with Hemo_jr. THe Fringeverse should have created an alternate timeline/universe, but since the changes done were by the machine, I think the machine did something special and rewrote the current timelines instead of just creating a branch.
Does that mean the future of the “old blueverse” is not existing? Or should I ask if you change the history or timeline of a universe, does that make it the same universe?
I’m under the impression the observers not only exist out of our time, but are still Linear creatures in a timeline of sorts, they can correct ours without being able to go back in their own timeline…”doctor who-ish” I know….
but also, I think what has happened to the new timeline cannot be undone….
BUT that i’m also of the people who think Peter can come from his Bubble-verse back to new timeline, but that people WILL NOT remember exactly who he is, but also that because of his strong connections with Walter and Olivia, they have this imprint of the other timeline in their collective unconscious…
very run-on….
One thing to add to my previous post above:
Since both Olivia and Walter are seeing him (through hallucinations and dreams), and STILL don’t recognize or remember him, this is further proof that the Orangeverse and Unknownverse are not the Blueverse and Redverse, respectively. If they were in fact just altered/changed timelines due to Peter’s absence, then the “traces of him that continue to bleed through” would also allow little bits of memory and reversion to “bleed through” as well. Meaning for the quick half-second that Peter becomes visible to Walter, the timeline should have reverted to its former Blue self for that half-second, and then changed back to Orange when he vanished half-a-second later again.
Since Peter “bleeding through” is having no effect on the timeline, this means that the Orange and Unknown Color Universes are in fact ALTERNATE UNIVERSES, which mirror the Red and Blue relationship to each other.
I stated above that instead of there being two sides to one coin (Red/Blue) that there were an unlimited amount of sides to the coin (Red/Blue/Orange/Unknown, Black, Green, Purple, etc, etc) but perhaps there are actually an unlimited number of coins, each having two sides (Red/Blue, Orange/Unknown, Black/Purple, etc/etc). For each universe there is an opposite/alternate universe that it is tied to, and currently some of them are either tethered at Liberty Island to each other, at war with one another, or aren’t even aware of it’s counterparts existence.
What we, the viewers, are missing is that it may seem like we are following our favorite characters in their adventures, but we in fact are following Redverse Peter. He is in the Orangeverse right now trying desperately to become whole again. Meanwhile, back in the Blue/Red tethered Universe the Olivia and Walter that we grew to love over the past 3 seasons are wondering where the heck Peter disappeared to 🙂
What happened to Peter is that he was erased from the Red/Blue coin but somehow latched onto the Orange/Unknown coin. Either way, as I stated above (no matter how one chooses to view the multiverse) Peter fully emerging in the Orangeverse will not change it. He will have to explain to everyone who he is (with Walter having a breakdown I’m sure) and then they will have to figure out how to get him home to the Blueverse, which will be a big deal because up until now they were only aware of the one alternate Universe (the other side of their coin). Also, Walternate of the Unknown Color Universe will most likely have something to say about it because, technically, our Peter is closer related in his history to that of Walternate’s deceased son, Peter.
I am actually a little disappointed how the writers “cheated”.
The observer said about (Peter) “He never existed”.
So I spent the whole summer wondering a fringe universe where Peter never existed.
Now we find out Peter existed, and Walter still kidnapped him from Walternate. Which is 100% different from the concept that Peter never existed. I think the writers took an easy plot escape from a major rule they layed down that “He never existed”. I did enjoy the Observers discussing its impossible to bleed through the timeline. I wish they would expand on that impossiblitiy and how it became possible.
I agree with you. But at the same time, I knew that Peter existed but died. As suggested in my previous blog right after the episode The Day We Died aired. 🙂
They meant that adult Peter never existed, which he hasn’t
Balfro, I think I understand what you are saying, but I have a hard time believing that Fringe is setting up the multiverse of realities. In that case, every episode could have been or could be in a different universe, and the only way grounding viewers to what universe the show is in this week is the color at the beginning of the episode? I would venture to guess that most casual viewers don’t even notice the color. I know I didn’t until I started listening to the podcast.
If they are going Multiverse, then what happened to the Blue & Red universes? I’d rather know that, than what’s going on in the Orange universe (if it is one of the multiverse). I want to see what original Olivia and original Folivia are doing. If new Olivia is just one of infinite Olivias that each make different choices and cause different results, then who cares about a particular Olivia? No matter what she does or chooses, another universe spins off and creates a path of when she chose something differently. There is no “our Olivia” for viewers to hold onto.
I think the universes we are seeing are Blue & Red verse with a timeline changed at the day Peter died in the lake. How that’s possible, I have no idea. But sending a machine 85 million years back in time isn’t exactly possible either.
I think the writers set up the finale last season with the “possible future” and then it going away, as a precursor to showing the “what-if Peter didn’t exist” (orange) universes (both red & blue) and then it will be going away. Once Peter somehow returns, there is going to be a timeline change again to him surviving in that lake. Again I have no idea how they are going to pull this off.
Maybe “out of time” Peter works with Walter to create the machine in this new timeline (orange) that gets sent back in time and the whole thing starts over again.
First up, for this season my take on what is transpiring is that we are in the same universe with an altered time line.
When Peter returns my money is on him retaining his, and our – aka the audience, memories of the previous 3 seasons. But he will be the only one. None of the other characters are going to suddenly regain or acquire knowledge of the previous seasons upon Peter’s return.
So Season 4 will be a flip of Season 3. In Season 3 most of the characters and the audience were in on the secret about Peter being from the Redverse, except Peter. In Season 4 only Peter and the audience will know about the previous timeline.
What I hope the show will strive for is a convergence of the timelines so that the events of what are transpiring in Season 4 are important and need to be retained. The Translucent Shape Shifters(TLS) and the person(s) behind them seem to be crafted for that purpose.
My expectations are that around episode 8 is when the timelines will converge. Then the rest of the season will change focus to the TLS’s and resolving the impending bi-universal collapse.
Like others, I too see September as being the one responsible for precipitating the events that allow Peter to fully cross over into the new time line.
I’m having some problems with this new Yellow place (universe or alternate timeline or whatever it is) and most particularly with the behavior of the Observers in it. The Observers are the one group of humanoid life forms we are all assuming have remained constant during the transition from the Blueverse to Yellowland. But the more I think about it the more questions I have. In the good old days of the Blueverse and Redverse one of the few things we knew for sure was that Peter was important. September distracted Walternate away from the cure Walternate had just discovered because it was an important moment and he wanted to be there. Then when Walter kidnapped Peter brought him to the Blueverse September saved both of them and told Walter “the boy is very important.” Both of those acts only make sense if it was important that Peter not die yet. If Peter had already fulfilled his important purpose then neither curing his illness or saving him from drowning would have been important to the Observers.
But here in Yellowland Peter’s survival was not important. Walter said he, not Walternate, discovered the cure for Peter’s illness. Walternate was not distracted by September. When Walter brought Peter to the Blueverse September did not save Peter and instruct Walter to take care of him. We don’t even know if September saved Walter. Walter may have saved himself. Despite Walter’s love for Peter, if the shock of being plunged into icy water caused him to lose his grasp on Peter, I find it believable that Walter pulled himself out of the water rather than die in a hopeless attempt to find Peter. I would argue that Walter would realize his only (extremely slim) chance of saving Peter would be to get out of the water if only to get out of his heavy clothing. Once Walter’s clothing absorbed water its weight it would have pulled both Walter and Peter down to their deaths. If September did not intervene and Walter lost his grip on Peter, Walter’s only hope was that the drowning response would give him a few minutes to come up with a plan to find Peter. Or perhaps September rescued Walter but not Peter. Whatever happened, it is clear September did not save Peter.
Why do the Observers suddenly want the opposite of what they wanted in the Blueverse and the Redverse? Why must Walter and Olivia and the rest “never know the boy lived to be a man?” Did Peter lose his importance or is this a new set of Observes with new objectives. Are these the same Observers we’ve seen for the past three years? Or are they duplicates who just look the same?
If they don’t bring the blue universe back then I’ll stop watching. Up until about a minute before the end of Season 3, Fringe has been one of the best shows on television but now suddenly, I’m struggling to watch it.
Maybe it’s because I only started watching a few weeks ago with boxsets and so I feel more attached to the characters, having back-to-backed many episodes, I don’t know. Right now though, I feel a sick feeling of loss while watching season four. Kind of like having a girlfriend split up with you without an explanation.
It’s not just that I miss ‘our’ universe, it’s that all the other characters are horrible to watch. Their lives of Olivia and Walter in particular were significantly better beforehand. Olivia’s lost some warmth and her endearing fragility and Walter’s gone from being a generally happy and nice man to a depressed loner. It’s just not pleasant to watch anymore. There’s also a sense of loss in terms of how much has been achieved so far e.g. Walter’s mental progress, his ownership of Massive Dynamic etc. All of that has been lost. It feels a little like we’ve been wasting our time watching the first three seasons because they’re unimportant.
I’ve never had such a sudden 180 whilst watching a show, I keep thinking that it would have been better had it been cancelled after season three. If there are no signs that we’ll get ‘our’ universe back by the end of the season then I’ll likely stop watching.
My slim hope for how they might ‘fix’ it is by Peter travelling back in time and saving himself from drowning in the lake. If that were to happen though, they’d likely drag it until the season finale by which point it will likely be too late for me and I’m guessing many othes. For a show like this that must depend so strongly on long-term regular viewers, it seems insane to smack fans across the face like this.
Joining the discussion way late, but…….. I fall on the side of we are seeing the same universes just without having had Peter. That explains why altbroyles is still alive. No Peter, no need for Olivia to go over to the other side, no reason for altbroyles to help her get back.
I don’t think we are seeing an alternate timeline either. It is the same timeline corrected to not include Peter (yes, that means that season 1-3 adventures are not in the memories of the Fringe team, or they are and they just didn’t happen with Peter).
If they (the show runners) continue with this direction, I think it would be the boldest move on a tv show ever. Even eclipsing **SPOILER*** the John Locke thing. I think it would make for a very interesting season 5, as opposed to returning to the season one and two format that could seem repetitive.
My only question would be: What about Fauxlivia’s baby?