I recently discussed the subject of science versus religion with folks at the Fringe Podcast. Specifically, how each of those subjects provides Fringe with a wealth of material for story lines, plot devices etc.
The use of religion or faith has been a vital component to the show most specifically involving the character of Walter Bishop. As Fringe progressed through the first three seasons of the show we increasingly saw Walter reject his past misdeeds, seek atonement and openly beseech God for forgiveness. Episodes such as “White Tulip” and “6:02 AM EST” come to mind.
Certainly we’ve seen our share of science, or more accurately, science fiction on the show. Any series that can come up with inter-dimensional travel, shape-shifters and the like is definitely dealing with science no matter how off kilter.
But recently I’ve wondered that the subject of faith or religion has been mined a bit too far. I’ve become concerned that its use has become over baked and repetitive. I can cite specifically the religious image of Walter’s “stigmata” as he thrashed around his hotel room in sheer panic.
Stigmata refers to the bloody wounds suffered by Christ on the cross usually related to the palms of the hands. In the episode, “Subject 9” Olivia rushes into Walters room only to find him with arms spread wide in a Christ like pose with blood running from his hands.
What particularly troubles me is that this particular iteration of Walter has not sought atonement. He has not owned up to his past misdeeds or sought forgiveness for his transgressions. So why show him suffering as if he is making some sacrifice to cleanse his soul? This Walter (unknowingly) has sought to keep Peter from crossing back and has even experimented with bringing “life” back to a dead dove.
So I am asking all of you for some feedback on this. Does religious imagery still have a place on Fringe? Or, have they overused it or exploited it beyond the context of the show. Do you feel the use of such imagery is crowding out the weird science we’ve come to know and love? Or would you prefer more?
Very intriquing question, IDD. Does the relgious imagery have a place on the show? In my humble opinion, I think it depends on if they are going somewhere with it or not, and with this show one never knows… Personally, I find they going on a bit too much with it, and in a show like this, they could approach it perhaps in a different way rather than doing the Stigmata thing and similar. I get the feeling someone is trying to sell me something, if you get what I mean, and made me reconsider the show.
The whole idea of Walter questioning his science and his religion is very valid, and is a theme repeatedly using in many sci-fi books/movies/etc – it’s the perfect place to ask that kind of question. In this day and age, that very question is being asked alot and perhaps the show is making Walter the one to ask it. But does it have a place in Fringe? I find there is already enough going on, it doesn’t really need this and, though I’m not sure anyone would agree with me, I’m not sure Walter would be the right person to ask that question. My explanation of that point of view would be too long and dull to get into here, suffice to say, Walter’s character has enough on his plate. If they really had to through religion into the mix, I might prefer that they did like a two-parter or something like that to deal with the issue and then move on.
I adore watching Fringe, and have put my trust into the writer’s hands to assume they know where they are going, but I do find the religious imagery of late distracting and does not make me any more sympathetic for the character. So do I think it’s crowding out the neat weird science? Yes, I do.
Thanks for the reply I Hardy. I thought this bit of imagery a bit heavy handed and forced. Sure it was clever but with this version of Walter it just didn’t match. You’re right about science vs. religion are part of a larger conversation in today’s society and as we get closer to election time it will become more pervasive.
With Peter’s return we may see more religious parallels. Walter may even play the role of a “Doubting Thomas”. Let’s hope its not too over board as the allusions are getting too easy..
At the moment, we have a conservative government, and not too many Canucks are pleased about that. I only mention it because now, even up here in Canada, religion is a bit more of an issue than it was, and here in Quebec it is quite an issue because of many different beliefs that move here which is wonderful and they are all welcomed here. It makes it very eye-opening. As Joyce mentions so very well in her post, about perhaps seeing Olivia’s spiritual journey (and Olivia would have been my choice for that as well instead of Walter), one can sort of “see” all the different spiritual journeys different cultures take.
I’m a long-time self-decided athiest, but certainly enjoy watching/reading about questioning on these topics, when they are done in relevant situations.
I must say I resent religion used as a political football. I’m not too much of a practitioner of the faith myself but I know when someone is trying to make political capital out faith. Too easy.
It’s the ease of which religious memes and tropes being manipulated and exploited for TV story lines that is beginning to bother me. Certainly it is not confined to Fringe. I love Fringe and I am willing to give it a pass. But I am concerned that they will fall in love with these themes at the risk of sacrificing richer material. More Sci-Fi please!
I am not crazy about the insertion of religion or religious imagery per se, on this or any other sci-fi show. It is annoying, trite,and distracting. I am, however, very interested in the “spiritual” journey of these characters, and their evolution into “better” or wiser human beings.
As an aside, many discuss the spiritual journey of Walter quite a bit, but I would like to hear more thoughts about that of Olivia. I view her as a strong but yet “damaged/wounded” woman, and think she is actually a “new” kind of female character on TV. At least I can’t recall such a complexl female lead on a science fiction show ever before. I would like the see her “heal” emotionally and embrace her cortexiphan abilities (if she has them in this timeline, which I will go out on a limb and say that she does.)
Joyce, I’m glad you brought up the topic of a “spiritual journey”. Surely there are other great religions of the world that the Fringe writing team can borrow from. I was raised as a Catholic myself and sometimes I squirm at all the Christian themes in the show. Religions such as Hinduism and Bhuddism would be perfect for a spiritual journey. Even a non denominational journey would be fine,
As for a strong female character in a sci-fi show I can think of Kara “Starbuck” Thrace of Battlestar Galactica fame. She was played by Katie Sackhoff and it has defined her career. I highly recommend that series. Gillian Anderson’s Agent Scully is also a fine example of strong female lead character. See also Sarah Michelle Gellars “Buffy” and Lucy Lawless’ “Xena: Warrior Princess” for female characters that broke the mold.
I have to say that I must be thick as a brick, because having watched the show twice, I didn’t give the religious imagery relating to the stigmata a second glance. My first thought was “Wow, Walter really dug his fingernails into his palms.” So, first, I think that it may not be as heavy handed for the “normal” viewer or for viewer that may not have been raised in a Christian tradition. That being said, for those of us who explore the deeper aspects of the show, I can see where this imagery was a bit “over the top” for some, but I personally didn’t have any issue with it.
I agree that Original Blueverse Walter was indeed going through a spiritual journey from a man that once rejected God (episode “Peter”) to one that sought forgiveness (White Tullip,etc) as analyzed by IDD. There was also themes of Abraham in Firefly with Walter being tested by the Observers to see if he would be willing to sacrifice Peter (“Give him the keys, and save the girl”) much like God tested Abraham by telling him to kill his only son. I am sure there are a ton more that can be “detected” if you watch the show carefully.
So to summarize 1) I really don’t mind some of the imagery and I think some (most?) of it goes over the heads of the average viewer (and me too); 2) there are probably a lot more religious themes can be spotted if you look hard enough but 3) not all are intentional …the show has plotlines that are universal : sacrifice, redemption, forgiveness, etc and these dovetail with religious elements…but not necessarily all aspects in the exploration of those themes is of a religious bent so I don’t think that the showrunners are trying to “overdue” religion in the show.
About the “doubting Thomas” comment of IDD…so I ask, if Walter says that he doesn’t believe that Peter has come back from the dead, there is an assumptive religious theme there? I think that it would be completely normal for a man who watched his son “die twice” to NOT believe that he is now a full grown mand who emerged from a ball of light. LOL
BTW, I loved the post … made me think.
Thanks for the reply RS1726 you’re right about a lot of the religious imagery not being intentional. Christian “mythology” is so firmly ingrained in western culture that it can’t help but seep into our collective works of art or serve as inspiration.
Here’s a twist on my “doubting Thomas’ allusion; Peter had always been the rock for Walters sanity much like St. Peter was the rock for the Christian church. What if in a role reversal Walter takes on the role of the apostle Peter and denies his son’s existence three times much like was done in scripture? I’ll have to watch for that in the next episode. See, you made me think too!
BTW, are you sure you can use the words “completely normal” in the same sentence as Walter? Even this iteration has seen just about everything.
IDD, enjoyed what you said in your feedback played on the podcast, and I’m with you. Though Darryll and Clint are right, fringy science is definitely the big part, I’m hoping they don’t get too heavy-handed with the religious symbolism.
Hi I Hardy, good to hear from you again. Thanks for the kind words about my feedback. I listened to it today and I feel the same way now as I did when I first submitted it; that I didn’t state my case clearly enough. Clint and Darrell are right that there is plenty of Fringey science still in the show. I guess I thought the Stigmata for Walter just didn’t fit and it was ill used. I opted for this blog post to re-state my criticism and hopefully clarify some points. So far the feedback has been excellent and has opened up some new points for discussion.
I think also something is going on here.
Not in a strict Religon vs Science.
Walter Bishop kidnapped a child that was not his and 1) raised as his own pre-season 4 2) the child died in the kidnapping post season 3.
Kidnapping is a huge crime in mine book. Walter had no right to take redverse Peter.
Regardless of his intention to cure the child.
Walter’s treatment to children in the cortexiphan trials is wrong, regardless of the intent of training soilders to fight the war that Walter started.
So Walter has “sins” on his hands and heart…we all do.
We all fall short of Redemption and Salvation.
But we pursue it anyway.
Walter is pursuing Redemption and Salvation through Science and helping the present to forgive his past. Hence the looking for the White Tulip that God forgave him. It took science for Robocop to travel back in time to draw the Tulip, but did God allow it to happen.
I am uncertain. I have doubts. I want to believe. I can’t say life has not shaken my beliefs. Or does God give you just enough to drive you to your knees to look to him , I don’t know.
So it may not be so much Religon versus Science, it maybe Science and Religon.
Good Topic. Very thoughtful InterDeminsionalDave.
P.S. I do like IDD = InterDeminsionalDave as short hand.
Believe me Charlie “IDD” comes in very handy. Do you know how many times I’ve typed out Inter-dimensional and spelled it wrong? Too many.
You’re right about all of us pursuing redemption in our own way. Although Walter didn’t strike me as repentant in the episode “Subject 9”. He did seem to harbor some guilt though as he avoided eye contact whenever the cortexiphan trials were brought up. Don’t forget it was the old Walter that pursued redemption and salvation. This version hasn’t reached that point yet. Perhaps with Peter being back Walter will find his soul again. Always good to hear from you Charlie and keep the faith my friend, IDD out!
How funny I spelt it… InterDeminsionalDave when its Inter-dimensional
Ha, no worries Charlie, join the club. I was thinking of your feedback this afternoon concerning Walter seeking redemption etc. I thought you might like this post from my own blog concerning the new version of Walter.
http://interdimensional-dave.blogspot.com/2011/09/fringe-modern-prometheus.html
You are a Doctor Who fan too! Yesss! Sorry for getting off topic. Although points could be made for Who as well on this topic, though I find the show has usually handled very appropriately… 🙂
I do love the Doctor. Matt Smith is the man and Stetsons are cool. I’d like to know how many Fringe fans are crossover fans for Dr. Who. I thought “Let’s Kill Hitler” was amazing. I still haven’t gotten to “Closing Time” and “The Wedding of River Song” I’m so ashamed! (And way too busy.)
Let’s Kill Hitler was excellent. The Wedding of River Song was just great as well – I won’t talk about it, don’t want to spoil it…
I think Matt Smith has done a fantastic job this season. I wasn’t overly fond of him (though he was great, absolutely) in the previous two. Then again, I’m a Tennant fan. 🙂
Have you seen Blink, written by Steven Moffat? I highly recommend watching that episode if you can find it.
Vincent and the Doctor is absolutely my favorite Doctor Who episode…It used to be father’s day…I can’t imagine how well Matt Smith has taken over the role.
I love Doctor Who!!!!!
I find the religious aspect of it just… out of place. Scientists like Walter Bishop and William Bell would never believe in the Christian God. They most likely wouldn’t believe in any higher power (beyond what we cannot currently explain). To many, science is their religion. The ways things connect and how everything has come to be. But the way they force religion into this show just feels so fake and unrealistic.